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Politics live: November 19, 2013

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'Australia should not be expected to apologise'

Tony Abbott says he regrets any embarrassment caused by revelations Australia has spied on the Indonesian leadership, but tells parliament he won't apologise..

PT0M0S 620 349
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'Australia should not be expected to apologise' (Thumbnail) 'Australia should not be expected to apologise'

Tony Abbott says he regrets any embarrassment caused by revelations Australia has spied on the Indonesian leadership, but tells parliament he won't apologise..

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  • Bob Carr has got to be kidding.

    Whatever went on in the last 18 months happened under his watch. Far from offering anything constructive, Carr can only inflame things, as his track record demonstrates.

    Bishop needs to wave a big stick in front of him very quickly.

    Commenter
    Hacka
    Location
    Canberra
    Date and time
    November 19, 2013, 9:21AM
    • Hacka. Read the article first before you fire off an LNP press release. There is no reference to the last 18 months.

      Commenter
      Wise One
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 9:39AM
    • Classic Liberal response. We take no responsibility for anything. We are just the Government.

      In fact, it would have gone on under the watch of any Australian Government. Both major parties have the same intelligence policies vis-a-vis the US Government, which it is really all about (not that I disagree with that policy).

      As a number of people have pointed out, the real problem is the casual way that the US government has treated the most sensitive aspects of its relationship with its closest allies.

      Commenter
      Whyalla Wipeout
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 9:53AM
    • The LNP hack known as Hacka obviously believes that blame has to be determined, so wants to get in quick and blame Labor first. He just shows his naivety. Many make the mistake of unwarranted loyalty at all costs. Robert Menzies created ASIS in 1952 and it has been spying outside Australian borders ever since. So its not a Liberal or Labor issue really. It comes down to who is in power when an issue like this occurs and how they handle the situation. Unfortunately, our current PM is arrogant and doesn't know how to talk diplomatically. That is the problem here.

      Commenter
      Tone
      Location
      Melbourne
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 9:57AM
    • Oh WISE ONE, this is how Sky news reported this morning's comments by Bob Carr:
      ---
      Former foreign minister Bob Carr has described the latest diplomatic row between Australia and Indonesia over spying allegations as 'catastrophic'.

      He also called on the Abbott government to apologise immediately, saying Indonesia feels it is being treated with contempt by Australia.

      Mr Carr questioned whether any worthwhile intelligence could be gained from tapping the phones of Indonesian President Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono and other senior officials.

      'This is nothing short of catastrophic,' he told ABC radio on Tuesday, adding the Indonesian public feels it always loses out in dealings with foreigners.

      He criticised the wording and tone of Prime Minister Tony Abbott's dismissal of the spying claims in parliament on Monday.

      'The tone was too dismissive by far to have been helpful,' Mr Carr said.

      Foreign Minister Julie Bishop needs to find the appropriate words to apologise, Mr Carr said. Meanwhile, a former US diplomat warns Australia should expect an uncomfortable few months in its relations with Indonesia.
      ---

      According to Carr, it's all Abbott's fault. Yet another example of why Labor in Government should never be trusted. Just look back to when Lionel Murphy raided ASIO.

      Then there was everything to do with communist infitration f theALP and of the unions back in the late 40s and early 50s, including in relation to the Hunter Valley coal mining strikes of the time.

      Labor has many issues to contend with, least of all with its own "ME, MYSELF AND I" COMPLEX.

      As for Senator Ludlum, were not the Greens in bed with Labor from at least August 2010?

      Were they not meeting weekly with PM Gillard?

      Were they not already sharing all types of information with each other?

      Perhaps Labor should first apologise.

      Commenter
      Grant
      Location
      Mitcham
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 9:57AM
    • @Wise one..Tone and Whyalla Wipeout get a grip the spying was done in 2009 under Kevin Rudd's watch I suppose in your one track minds you think that Abbott was responsible as well????

      Commenter
      Observer
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 10:10AM
    • Rubbish Grant, it was only Abbott's handling that Carr was criticising. He wasn't blaming him for the spying. He was blaming him for being useless diplomatically.

      Commenter
      Tone
      Location
      Melbourne
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 10:11AM
    • WW and Tone

      Hacka knows, as do you both, that the spying game continues irrespective of who is in power.

      Given Carr presided in the seat whilst this was probably occurring, do you not think that perhaps he should have simply kept his mouth shut?

      It appears you have both responded to Hacka, because he / she is well err...Hacka.

      Commenter
      $keptic
      Location
      Melbourne
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 10:15AM
    • Gee Tone / WW - we can agree on something - that this issue is non-partisan.

      If you guys looked a bit closer, the hacking didn't happen in the past 18 months.

      Carr's getting belted by Hartcher and is simply trying to deflect attention. That he'd do it at the expense of security issues goes straight to character.

      Commenter
      Hacka
      Location
      Canberra
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 10:44AM
    • I'll grant you that Hacka, provided you also agree that the fact that Abbott and the Liberals covering everything up goes straight to their character.

      Commenter
      Tone
      Location
      Melbourne
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 12:41PM
    • Hey guys, this started out with Hacka running the standard Liberal line - we're not responsible; we are only the government. Perhaps a bit of intelligent analysis, rather than pre-programmed Liberal propaganda will be helpful.

      I will agree that Bob Carr seems to have jumped the political shark and has joined Latham and Richardson as irrelevant egos. I so wish Labor had people like Vanstone, Reith, etc who could be relied on to say the most outrageously biased stuff straight faced.

      Commenter
      Whyalla Wipeout
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 1:50PM
    • Whyalla Wipeout, if the best you can manage is to just repeat all the criticisms people said about the last ALP government, nobody will listen. You sound like a sook who lost. It is common knowledge that the Rudd/Gillard governments did not take any responsibility and blamed it all on the Opposition, every single time. I only wish Liberal had a Gillard who can look straight into a camera and completely lie without blinking.

      Commenter
      Gazzatone
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 3:54PM
    • Gazzatone,

      So much for Abbott's rhetoric about the buck stopping with him, eh?

      Not so easy in government when you only have slogans.

      Abbott's favourite song at the moment is "Sorry seems to be the hardest word" while Morrison's favourite song is "Silence is Golden" and Dr Evil's "Zip It".

      Commenter
      Tristan
      Location
      Melbourne
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 4:41PM
  • They are doing the old drum up business war game strategy to combat recession,thats all,Its because were open for business .And business transcends politics, its supreme ,the new God.

    Commenter
    Kane
    Date and time
    November 19, 2013, 9:39AM
    • All of a sudden our government who has only been in since Sept done all this spying? I don't think so. Also I don't think Indonesia should be yell at this. Lets see Indonesia, East Timor, West Papua other invasions that they did with UN condemnation. Maybe we should all just stop going to Indonesia and see what happens? After seeing 4 corners last night, Indonesia should not be yelling on so much!

      Commenter
      What The
      Location
      Melbourne
      Date and time
      November 19, 2013, 9:41AM
        • Nope, they haven't done all the spying, but they have been the ones that have handled it all so incompetently.

          Commenter
          Tone
          Location
          Melbourne
          Date and time
          November 19, 2013, 10:08AM
        • Exactly Tone, the issue is not that the spying was taking place before this government. Ecveryone acknowledges that it has been going on for decades and both sides are complicit in the practice. The issue is how NOW the govt. handles it diplomatically in order to defuse the issue. I don't have high hopes for Bishop on the evidence of the last 2 months.

          Commenter
          Richard
          Location
          Melbourne
          Date and time
          November 19, 2013, 10:38AM
      • Hacka, signals intelligence has been going on under all governments, both conservative and progressive. The problem here is they got caught out because of a loose cannon in the US system. This is a tragedy for Australia's standing in the world. Stop trying to score party political points please. Show you are an "adult" for a change.

        Commenter
        John
        Location
        Brisbane
        Date and time
        November 19, 2013, 9:43AM
        • One in three (ONE IN THREE) Australian women over the age of 15 has reported experiencing physical or sexual violence at some point in their lives.
          Unbelievable - DISGUSTING!!
          Australian mentality has serious issues.
          Only last week 1 fifth of the paedophiles caught in an international bust were Australian.

          Commenter
          Genghis
          Location
          Lounge
          Date and time
          November 19, 2013, 9:44AM
          • Ghengis- If those figures are true it is truly appalling. I won't be ridiculous and say that I'm ashamed to be a man, but it is horrifying that so many men out there would behave in that way ( and I assume that the overwhelming majority of the guilty are men).

            Commenter
            David Morrison
            Location
            Blue Mountains
            Date and time
            November 19, 2013, 10:31AM
        • Labor should be very, very careful indeed. They might just be about to get a Royal Commission or similar judicial inquiry into their NBN, and into their foreign spying on Indonesia.

          Bob Carr should really explain as to how the Government, his Government, the Government of which Rudd was PM and Gillard was Deputy PM, followed then by the Government of which Gillard was PM and swan was Deputy PM, followed then by the Governdment of which Rudd was again the PM and Albaneses was Deputy PM, was actively carrying outy eavesdropping, spying and the like against Indonesia.

          Its one thing to suggest what intelligence gathering is all about. Its entirely another for Opposition Leader Shorton and his Labor frontbench to look at trying to blame the Abbott Government for this.

          As Minister Turnbull told his Opposition counterpart, Jason Claire (the former Home Affairs and Justice Minister, and Cabinet Secretary, on whose watch some of this eavesdropping was carried out), he (Turnbull) is more than happy to encourage his Department to release the Incoming Government Briefing that he received, provided that Leader Shorten similarly releases the Cabinet papers of the RGR era relating to the NBN.

          t's the proem Labor They can't stomach being out of Government. Yet they can't accepty aresponsibility or accountability when they are in Government, or for when they were in Government.

          Commenter
          Grant
          Location
          Mitcham
          Date and time
          November 19, 2013, 9:49AM
          • "Its entirely another for Opposition Leader Shorton and his Labor frontbench to look at trying to blame the Abbott Government for this."

            And its another thing again for a Liberal supporter on these pages to make up crap like the above statement in order to attack Labor and cover up for the incompetence of the Liberal Government.

            Bob Carr is no longer on the Labor front bench and what he says is irrelevant. The fact is that these events would have gone on under any Government, Labor or Conservative, because both have the same relationship with the US.

            As for the rest of the screed, it is, unfortunately, the sort of dishonest misrepresentation that Liberals have always engaged in to cover up for their own inherent dishonesty and incompetence.

            Commenter
            Whyalla Wipeout
            Date and time
            November 19, 2013, 10:00AM
          • You do understand that the leader of the opposition is usually briefed on Intelligence matters?

            Commenter
            Peter A
            Location
            Sydney
            Date and time
            November 19, 2013, 10:04AM
          • Oh Grant. Exactly the same thing happened under Howard & Costello. But all of a sudden that era is all forgotten and what about the childish rubbish Abbott peddled as opposition leader.

            Commenter
            Wise One
            Date and time
            November 19, 2013, 10:04AM
          • Is this a LNP press release?

            Bob Menzies, a Liberal Party hero, set up ASIS in 1952 for spying on our neighbours.

            And a royal commission into the NBN would have been a pathetic waste of money.

            Commenter
            Tone
            Location
            Melbourne
            Date and time
            November 19, 2013, 10:06AM
          • erm...where have they blamed Abbott for this? Your rant is partisan and ignorant.

            Commenter
            paul of chester
            Date and time
            November 19, 2013, 10:09AM
          • Grant, when & where has Shorten tried to blame Abbott for this??!? Last I looked Scott Ludlam was a Greens MP.

            Commenter
            Lewis
            Location
            Sydney
            Date and time
            November 19, 2013, 10:12AM
          • Bring it on both royal commissions one for the batts and other for NBN and perhaps one to shut all you petty LIbs whether the Lab Govt did the right thing to save economy during the GFC - am very confident they will come up really good - it is just a beat up by the mob that things they have the God given right to govern - o matter what - her stick in your pipe and smoke it.

            Commenter
            Manolaki
            Date and time
            November 19, 2013, 11:17AM
        • Scott should pull is head in and realise how important intelligence gathering is. For instance we will never know if certain people in the Indonesian government supported people smuggling or for the matter were/are involved?

          Stranger things have happened.

          Consider how WWII may have had a different outcome without Churchill's clandestine activities against Germany when he was a mere backbencher?

          Commenter
          Pen of hrba
          Date and time
          November 19, 2013, 9:53AM
          • As usually "hacka" you're Liberal ally right but I am going to love seeing them publically blame the previous admin for something they would have known about was going on. Wont wash with Indonesia old boy

            Commenter
            peter
            Location
            daintree
            Date and time
            November 19, 2013, 9:55AM
              • peter - Abbott's already showing his diplomatic skills on this one. In answering Bandt's ignorant question in parliament, Abbott took a mature and non-partisan approach.

                Right now is the time for cool heads and less talk. Carr really needs to shut up.

                Commenter
                Hacka
                Location
                Canberra
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 10:16AM
              • So the previous opposition dictated foreign policy...Yeah right. Eveyone spies and it happened under Labor and they got caught. Apart from the new Gov having to deal with it I can't see how TA fault. Bob Carr is an idiot but he always was. No one listens to him anyway.

                Commenter
                Brettie
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 10:23AM
              • Unfortunately the one that is beyond any Labor politician even in retirement is to stop talking, and talking, and talking....

                Commenter
                SteveH.
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 10:53AM
              • Hacka, Abbott's foreign diplomacy is on display in responding to a question from Adam Bandt in QT? Maybe he should conserve his energy and display it when he's talking with foreign Governments.

                Commenter
                jofek
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 4:56PM
            • My gut feeling is this is a beat up by Indonesia for being told in no uncertain terms to stop people smuggling. One must be suspicious about the fact that people smuggling has been allowed to continue not only unabated but continually expanded over a long period of time. Only by government acquiescence could this continue if there was otherwise a genuine desire to stop people smuggling by Indonesian authorities.

              I suspect that Indonesian government officials have caught out, and what we are seeing is the fury of diplomatic embarrassment.

              Commenter
              Pen of hrba
              Date and time
              November 19, 2013, 10:03AM
              • With you on this one Pen 100%
                It's all just polotics

                Commenter
                Brettie
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 10:24AM
              • Did you see 4 corners last night? Interesting insight into what is going on from their jails regarding (so called) jailed people smugglers.

                Commenter
                Justin
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 10:56AM
              • Yeap. They didn't like being told to pull their finger out and actually do something, instead of sucking up Australian aid money all the time. Just ignore them.

                Commenter
                Sarah of Carnegie
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 10:57AM
              • Pen,

                We may not agree on certain things but I will give you credit here. I believe you are spot on with your opinion.

                Commenter
                Smokin Mo
                Location
                Ryde
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 11:02AM
              • Could be right. Indonesia trying to divert attention. I'd wager that people smugglers pay officials who in their turn pay other officials. Who knows how high in the food chain the payments go.

                Commenter
                JM
                Location
                Sydney
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 11:11AM
              • Goodness Pen I've never agreed with you before either but you have nailed it this time. Indonesia's efforts to combat people smuggling in their own country has been dismal. And for them now to say co operation on this issue may be in jeopardy is laughable. Yep saw 4 corners last night Justin. Unbeleivable.

                Commenter
                Jane
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 11:24AM
              • I agree with Pen too! What a day.

                Commenter
                David Morrison
                Location
                Blue Mountains
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 12:07PM
              • Thanks guys, all this adulation is of your truly is a little embarrassing.

                By the way, Jane if you are the Jane that questioned one tonne of coal contains 2.86 tonnes of C02 I am afraid you wrong and Pen is right brown coal can contain even more Co2 per tonne than 2.86, however, I use 2.86 as a mean average.

                It means that this year's Australian coal production of 456.1 million tonnes produces 130.440 billion tonnes of Co2. The cost to abate is of the order of $2,2 billion per 400,000 tones of Co2. So divide 130.440 by 400,000 X $2,2 billion and oh dear $7 thousand billion.

                Hence the stupidity of expanding coal production.

                Commenter
                Pen of hrba
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 12:15PM
              • Not often we agree Pen. But you're probably right on this one!

                Commenter
                Alternate View
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 12:52PM
            • Julie Bishop must apologise asap and offer Indonesia another fifty to sixty billion dollars a year...it's inevitable, anyhow.

              Commenter
              Judge
              Location
              Sydney
              Date and time
              November 19, 2013, 10:05AM
              • An acid test for Bishop & Abbott. I am going to be interested to see how these two, who always professed that they were ready for government are going to handle this. We can accept as a given that the spying has been going on by both sides of politics for decades so they are not solely to blame. If Abbott & co mishandle this, as I expect they will because they are inept, we can expect an armada of refugees being sent to our shores by Indonesia to show their extreme displeasure. Will our spies pick up on that one and how will Operation Sovereign Borders (what a sad joke) deal with it.

                Commenter
                mitch of ACT
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 10:10AM
                • Mitch, I'm betting none of your whishful predictions will come to pass. This will just blow over after the Indonesian elections because Indonesia have just as much to loose if tensions go on for too long.

                  Commenter
                  Lewis
                  Location
                  Sydney
                  Date and time
                  November 19, 2013, 10:58AM
                • So Mitch you now admit that the Indonesian government are behind the people smugglers. No doubt financing them and reaping commercial benefits. One then must wonder with the cosy relationship that the Greens and the ALP have with the Indonesian Government if they too were reaping some sort of benefit, after all things were very quiet when we were receiving up to 5,000 illegal immigrants per month. Now that the tide of illegal immigrants has been reduced to a trickle maybe the Indonesian government are mourning a loss of revenue from their people smuggling mates.

                  Commenter
                  Oh Dear
                  Date and time
                  November 19, 2013, 11:18AM
                • Indonesia has nothing to lose in this. Yes we give aid to Indonesia but there is one other player in the region that might welcome gaining a foothold in the region, and that is China. Imagine how the feathers would fly here if Indonesia invited China to establish a naval base for its growing navy on the southern Java coast. That's a day or so's sailing by warship from our iron ore ports. We have a lot more to lose than Indonesia.

                  Commenter
                  mitch of ACT
                  Date and time
                  November 19, 2013, 12:53PM
              • Why is it acceptable for past and present politicians to undermine Australia in the press? Anyone who believes that Indonesia doesn't spy on Australia is fooling themself. The detected spying by Australia happened under ALP watch so Carr should certainly be keeping his mouth shut. That doesn't mean that there hasn't been spying under the coalition as well though. What we don't need is Ludlum trying to score political points by undermining the nation. Indonesia is trying to take some sort of moral high ground here, which is a huge call considering their history of illegal invasions, corruption and persecution. Australia needs to just play this through without the political imbeciles having their childish power trips.

                Commenter
                Why?
                Date and time
                November 19, 2013, 10:24AM
                • Yes the spying was carried out under Rudd. But it started in 1999 under Howard

                  Commenter
                  Bert
                  Date and time
                  November 19, 2013, 10:29AM
                  • SO what do you think ASIS officers did prior to 1999. Play cards and smoke cigars?

                    Every country has spies. Knowing Australia has spies, who do we think they have been spying on? New Zealand? Wouldn't Indonesia be the logical first choice of target for Australia to spy on? Aren't we one of theirs? Or do we think Indonesian spies gather their intelligence by reading the SHM?

                    Commenter
                    Jonathan
                    Location
                    Sydney
                    Date and time
                    November 19, 2013, 11:00AM
                  • All that spying on Indonesia didn't stop the 2 Bali bombings so what's the point. Everytime there is a major incident it seems that the intelligence agencies are caught short. They pick the wrong targets. They spy on the easy ones, not those who fly under the radar.

                    Commenter
                    mitch of ACT
                    Date and time
                    November 19, 2013, 11:33AM
                • So we have SBYWATCH saying how upset he is, is the same SBYWATCH who hasn't said a word for about five years about anything? Who sends his Foreign Affairs Minister out to talk about things not being cricket? and we have the Greens saying we should stop spying? whilst supporting Greenpeace spying and trespassing in Russia? amazing hypocrisy. at least the Greenpeace activists can rely upon Rhiannon to make a few calls to the Kremlin on their behalf.

                  Commenter
                  enough is enough
                  Date and time
                  November 19, 2013, 10:32AM
                  • Personally Indonesia has more to lose with all the aid they have been getting from Australia cut if they create even further problems. They better think twice before making moves they will regret. Australia only uses them to have our fuel distilled at a good price. I am sure Australia can find another nation that can do the same thing.

                    Commenter
                    J.G.
                    Date and time
                    November 19, 2013, 10:34AM
                    • We know that the spying occurred no matter who was in power. Hacking his phone is just one way of many. Blaming ALP or LIB is useless. What this has now become is a litmus test on Abbott and Bishop. So far, the signs of their diplomacy has been nothing short of pathetic. While beating up Indonesia plays well with the red neck brigade, it is stupidity of the highest order. This will be fascinating.

                      Commenter
                      paul of chester
                      Date and time
                      November 19, 2013, 10:36AM
                      • Why doesn't Immigration and Home Security offer the Indonesian Ambassador one of the many Indonesian fishing vessels, with Indonesian crew, to get back to home base? This would be a win win for the Ambassador to see first hand what the issues are plus he could then look at the process on landing with his numerous officials lining up to welcome some foreign currency exchange to cover their operational overheads. Then when he eventually returns to Australia Bishop could summons him in for an insiders view of the problem. Bingo, everybody wins!

                        Commenter
                        enough is enough
                        Date and time
                        November 19, 2013, 10:38AM
                        • So how many fishing boats has Scott Morrison bought?

                          When Abbott said Australia was open for business, I didn't know he meant keeping Indonesian boat builders in business.

                          They can build them as fast as we can buy them.

                          And I wonder why Abbott's core boats policy was never even submitted to the PBO for independent costing, in direct contravention of the Liberals' own Charter of Budget Honesty.

                          Commenter
                          Tristan
                          Location
                          Melbourne
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 3:00PM
                      • I love the fact we have this type of live coverage every day now.. It used to be reserved for special occasions like elections.. Thanks Fairfax. Where else could all the 'Government Change" Deniers, Disrespect the Science of the electorate and rage against the democratic machine??

                        Commenter
                        Cwitty
                        Location
                        Sydney
                        Date and time
                        November 19, 2013, 10:55AM
                        • Bit behind the times there Cwitty, FF have upped the ante ( and readers are glad they did) as there are now countless forums on politics and some live. Even employing ex FF scribes.
                          It's called a commercial decision in order to compete with the new rise of the 5th estate.
                          And Judith, Andrew, Alex and our invisible moderator are doing a fine job to boot.

                          Commenter
                          A country gal
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 11:30AM
                        • ACG - I am actually one of the many fans. of this site, I enjoy reading the opinions of the minority. Thinking about opinions I disagree with helps me understand them better, and re-enforces my own beliefs. AND the 'Government Change' deniers need a place to vent, and FF doesn't want to lose all of the denier traffic to the ABC's 'Drum'

                          Commenter
                          Cwitty
                          Location
                          Sydney
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 12:28PM
                      • Intelligence gathering has being going on all over the world by all sides of all types of political parties. What makes this so intriguing is that the leaks have come from the rouge American Snowden. He is presently in the care and protection of the Russians who are doing a little meddling and manipulating of their own. First with Obama and Merkel and now with Abbott and the Indonesians.

                        Now think back a month or so ... who was the first world leader that Abbott really irritated in a public place? Why it was none other than Russian President Putin when Abbott was late to his birthday celebrations. This just looks like a bit dose of very damaging and embarrassing pay back from Putin to put the boot into the diplomacy free zone that Bishop and Abbott constitute.

                        America has let us down and Russia has rubbed our faces in it and now Indonesia will extract maximum payback from out of all this because the just don't like our present leaders.

                        Added to this is the present election cycle in Indonesia and bashing the hapless Abbott over there will play well to their domestic audience... and he does not have the necessary skills to diffuse this ... expect it all to get a whole lot worse before it gets any better ...

                        Commenter
                        juileep
                        Location
                        sydney
                        Date and time
                        November 19, 2013, 10:55AM
                        • Too many are making a bigger deal out of this than is necessary. Its a storm in a tea cup, Indonesians are just thumping their chests because they are going to have an election there and they want to demonstrate to their people that they will not be pushed around by Australia.

                          Commenter
                          Sarah of Carnegie
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 10:59AM
                        • Well said juileep, doesn't take much to put 2&2 together. The timing is no coincidence, stands out like the proverbials.
                          Spying has been going on for years and 9/11 shifted the game.

                          Commenter
                          A country gal
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 11:12AM
                      • Can anyone please explain why The Guardian and the ABC chose to release this infromation now as opposed to June of this year when the information first became available.

                        Surely if it is news worthy now, it was news worthy then.

                        One for the conspiracy theorists maybe?

                        Commenter
                        Smokin Mo
                        Location
                        Ryde
                        Date and time
                        November 19, 2013, 10:56AM
                        • Precisely the question that should be asked.

                          Commenter
                          Puzzled
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 11:53AM
                        • I'm going out on a limb and hoping they were doing the correct thing and checking/verifying facts. Something unusal for the media these days I know. But I can hope!

                          Commenter
                          bridgetkgw
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 12:13PM
                        • They are just trying to destroy Abbotts boats policy because it's working but all they've really done is made Australians and Indonesians hate each other even more if that's possible.

                          Commenter
                          GD
                          Location
                          Kogarah
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 1:15PM
                        • By the way it's not Abbott's boat policy. The policy was instituted by Labor just before the election and was starting to have an impact even in that short time. The Libs policy of tow-backs and buy-backs has not happened. The only significant change the Libs made was to shorten the refugees stay on Christmas Island from 2 weeks to 2 days for health checks. That means there is a danger of transferring someone with a transmissable disease into camps full of new victims. That reminds me of blanket diplomacy practiced by early Australian govts on the aboriginal population. Give them blankets infected with small pox and the problem goes away.

                          Commenter
                          mitch of ACT
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 1:56PM
                        • "They are just trying to destroy Abbotts boats policy because it's working but all they've really done is made Australians and Indonesians hate each other even more if that's possible."

                          GD

                          As if Indonesia ever accepted Abbott's core boats policies of turn back, buy back, tow back and paying Indonesians to spy.

                          They opposed it before our election, they reject it after our election, and they'll reject it after their election too.

                          "The stand-off led the Indonesian minister, Djoko Suyanto, to assert powerfully that the country would never take refugees from Australia under similar circumstances — a declaration that scuttles any chance that Mr Abbott's three-year old promise of turning back boats could become a reality under this Indonesian government."

                          "The Indonesian government never agreed to such wishes or policies by Australia," Indonesian co-ordinating minister for security Djoko Suyanto told the ABC on Friday."

                          "We have expressed this point of view since the Rudd government and there are no changes in our policy in relation to asylum seekers who want to go to Australia in the current Tony Abbott government. Australia already has its own detention centres in Nauru and PNG so they should send these asylum seekers ... [there] not to Indonesia."

                          www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/abbott-government-ends-asylum-seeker-standoff-with-indonesia-20131109-2x85v.html

                          Commenter
                          Tristan
                          Location
                          Melbourne
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 4:46PM
                      • Its all just a bit of willy waving. It will settle down soon. All governments spy.

                        Commenter
                        Sarah of Carnegie
                        Date and time
                        November 19, 2013, 11:00AM
                        • Meanwhile, the joint airforce excercise between 8 Australian FA-18's & 6 Indon F-16's is going ahead in the NT as if nothing has happened. No wonder Abbott is just quietly waiting for this to blow over.

                          Commenter
                          Lewis
                          Location
                          Sydney
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 11:12AM
                          • Yeap cause its just a beat up. If the Indonesians were that offended there would be no joint exercise taking place.

                            Commenter
                            Sarah of Carnegie
                            Date and time
                            November 19, 2013, 11:20AM
                        • To all the LNP faithful attempting to lay blame on the previous government guess what Tony Abbott is Prime Minister. He along with Julie Bishop are responsible for dealing with this. Just as Labor had to deal with Iraq and Afghanistan when they formed government. How Abbott deals with this situation is a matter for him. He will be judged by the outcome. I have to say watching his conduct this morning in door stops he is all at sea. Playing "tough guy" Tony or I have "no specific knowledge" Tony is not going to wash. I look forward to seeing PM Credlin's...sorry Abbott's response.

                          Commenter
                          Abbott is PM. What will he do?
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 11:17AM
                          • Labor or Liberals can't be blamed solely. What do you think Abbott should say?
                            By the way Peta's not the PM. As McTernan and Hawker weren't the previous PM's to Gillard and Rudd.

                            Commenter
                            a country guy
                            Date and time
                            November 19, 2013, 11:33AM
                          • Tony should offer to replace his mobile phone for him, in fact, he could offer to replace all the mobile phones to his whole cabinet, as well as offer them new Ipad's to boot.

                            Surely that would placate anyone.

                            Commenter
                            Smart Arse
                            Location
                            OZ
                            Date and time
                            November 19, 2013, 11:36AM
                        • Don't you love all the Labor Luvvies squirming because they can't blame all of this on Abbott. Even when Labor were in government, all the problems were caused by Abbott. When Labor gets caught out, they all of a sudden become bi-partisan. We all know they couldn't take responsibility when they were in power, and now they can't take any responsibility for past actions. Carr is the pin up boy for the "It Wasn't Me" party.

                          Commenter
                          Gazzatone
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 11:24AM
                          • I love the sense of relief being displayed by all the LNP luvvies that finally something is not all Tony's fault.

                            Commenter
                            tasch2
                            Location
                            Mornington Peninsula
                            Date and time
                            November 19, 2013, 11:50AM
                          • Perhaps the Libs should fess-up and take responsibility for all of the Iraqi refugees who came here when John Howard participated in G.W. Bush's illegal war in Iraq in 2003. Malcolm Fraser was man enough to accept the Vietnamese refugees who came here from 1975 onwards as a consequence of our participation in the US adventure in Vietnam. But somehow I don't think Tony Abbott is made of the right stuff to accept responsibility for anything that he previously endorsed, e.g. a tax on carbon.

                            Commenter
                            mitch of ACT
                            Date and time
                            November 19, 2013, 12:03PM
                        • Your description of Susilo Bambang Yudhoyono being one angry bird is unnecessarily disrespectful to a head of state and not in keeping with the standing of SMH.

                          Commenter
                          beachbob
                          Date and time
                          November 19, 2013, 11:37AM
                          • If only Reuben could talk. betcha he's heard a few top secrets and if only he could write a book.
                            But how someone could click the unlike button of a beautiful pic of a cute dog on the beach is perplexing. Sad, don't think he's ever done any harm. Or maybe the person doesn't like the beach.

                            Commenter
                            A country gal
                            Date and time
                            November 19, 2013, 11:38AM
                            • Fascinating revelation about those public service job cuts. Perhaps the CPSU might swing their support behind the Coalition.

                              Has Penny Wong provided her take as yet ? She's normally pretty quick on these matters.

                              Commenter
                              Hacka
                              Location
                              Canberra
                              Date and time
                              November 19, 2013, 11:38AM
                              • Looks like The Abbott government has under promised & over delivered. They promised 12,000 cuts but look like delivering 14,500 instead - thanks to Labor. LOL

                                Commenter
                                Lewis
                                Location
                                Sydney
                                Date and time
                                November 19, 2013, 11:56AM
                              • They may need to raise the debt ceiling to handle the additional unfunded payouts too Lewis.

                                Commenter
                                Hacka
                                Location
                                Canberra
                                Date and time
                                November 19, 2013, 12:06PM
                              • Hacka,

                                Hockey needs to raise the debt ceiling to half a trillon dollars before the end of the year and sneakily stop recording government debt borrowings for infrastructure as "debt" to pay for their 3 core policies that they never even lodged with the PBO for independent costing - direct action, boats policy and alternative broadband, their goldplated parental leave scheme, nanny/housekeeper rebate, removal of means testing of private health insurance, subsidies for flights and accommodation for overseas tourism surgery, the FBT car loophole, Liberals rorting of the RAAF jet and VIP jet, George Brandis' rubbish collection of books, Abbott's next Ironman event, plus the 200 policies with no costings released before or after the election.

                                Commenter
                                Tristan
                                Location
                                Melbourne
                                Date and time
                                November 19, 2013, 3:11PM
                              • The increased efficiency divided was announced by Wong in August and subsequently adopted by the LNP. The LNP knew that the savings of $1.8bn would come form job losses. 9000 of the project job losses are actually from efficiency dividends announced in previous budgets. None of this is new. As the LNP decided to make the latest Labor efficiency dividend their policy, it is their problem, not Labor's.

                                Commenter
                                Dags
                                Date and time
                                November 19, 2013, 5:41PM
                            • One in three (ONE IN THREE) Australian women over the age of 15 has reported experiencing physical or sexual violence at some point in their lives.

                              I got it first time, no need to shout.

                              Commenter
                              Smart Arse
                              Location
                              OZ
                              Date and time
                              November 19, 2013, 11:38AM
                              • And STILL the boats keep coming!!...How many towed back now?How many bought now?

                                Commenter
                                Steeden
                                Location
                                Ballina
                                Date and time
                                November 19, 2013, 11:42AM
                                • Who does SBY think he is? He's not in charge of our country! That honour goes to that other foreigner Rupert Murdoch!

                                  Commenter
                                  QED
                                  Date and time
                                  November 19, 2013, 11:48AM
                                  • Kevin Andrews looks his usual happy self at the White Ribbon Day ceremony. Tony Abbott doesn't seem to mind being in close proximity to Bill Shorten, so why should he look so sad about it?

                                    Commenter
                                    PaulM
                                    Location
                                    Melbourne
                                    Date and time
                                    November 19, 2013, 11:52AM
                                    • Could Abbott have handled this any worse?

                                      It's not that hard really - apologise, promise a review, work to repair the friendship.

                                      Always the competitor, TA is now contending for worst PM in history...

                                      Commenter
                                      Tony 'Dubya' Abbott
                                      Location
                                      Lost
                                      Date and time
                                      November 19, 2013, 12:02PM
                                      • I don't know why people are suggesting the Abbott government is secretive.

                                        I think the TA and his ministers are being completely transparent about their incompetency.

                                        Commenter
                                        Transparent Tony
                                        Location
                                        For all to see
                                        Date and time
                                        November 19, 2013, 12:14PM
                                        • The prime minister has beautiful lips, for a man. Nice pic.

                                          Commenter
                                          christielle
                                          Date and time
                                          November 19, 2013, 12:24PM
                                          • LOL I thought the same thing....

                                            Commenter
                                            Jane
                                            Date and time
                                            November 19, 2013, 1:26PM
                                        • Indonesia seem to enjoy diplomacy through the media, even twitter by the Presidient.

                                          Commenter
                                          Anders
                                          Date and time
                                          November 19, 2013, 12:24PM
                                          • Seems the towing option is in jeopardy, "Ripping the Bow". Couple this with the diplomatic stand off, OSB in the big blue deep. Taking the phones of the jailed smugglers might be easier or at least we could bug them. Good luck with that.

                                            Commenter
                                            A country gal
                                            Date and time
                                            November 19, 2013, 12:31PM
                                            • "Public service reporter Noel Towell..." I think I'm beginning to work out why Fairfax trades so low. You seem to employ reporters for everything. Except maybe things like dole bludgers and dubious art grants.

                                              Commenter
                                              Moar Politics
                                              Date and time
                                              November 19, 2013, 12:40PM
                                              • The Australian, which never makes money can trump that by employing a whole raft of so-called journalists whose sole responsibility is to make Labor look bad and the Liberals look good. The only thing they have to worry about is to not support the Liberals in any policy that may have adverse impacts on Rupert Murdoch's interests.

                                                Commenter
                                                Whyalla Wipeout
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:54PM
                                              • Labor don't need the media to look bad, ALP does that very well on their own. Even they admit they were dysfunctional.

                                                Commenter
                                                Gazzatone
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 3:48PM
                                              • Heh heh, Gazzatone,

                                                Whereas Scott Morrison has to resort to using his 3 star general responding no comment in an increasingly terse and aggravated tone, and "operational reasons" and "on water operations" excuses to avoid answering pertinent questions in both parliament and his weekly briefings.

                                                Morrison is also unable to answer questions in parliament if he doesn't have the papers in his folder (how convenient) and has avoided all media interviews for the past 73 days except for his weekly friendly discussions with 2GB's shock jock Ray Hadley.

                                                Morrison also released previously released media releases in response to the Senate pressing him to answer the questions on asylum seekers he failed to answer in parliament.

                                                The giant Liberal billboard with a running tally of boat arrivals that Abbott was so happy to tweet in opposition has been quickly, quietly and permanently packed away.

                                                Commenter
                                                Tristan
                                                Location
                                                Melbourne
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 4:55PM
                                              • Moar Politics,

                                                Well we know what the Liberals read - their own press releases and Wikipedia.

                                                Commenter
                                                Tristan
                                                Location
                                                Melbourne
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 5:19PM
                                            • Less competitive with who? This statement by Randall is utter bolder dash.

                                              China recently spent $109.8 billion on green energy. The USA invested $35 billion and cut coal fired power down to 34%. India spent US $7.9 billion and produced 162 billion KWh through green energy compared to Australia’s 29 billion KWh.

                                              China produced 797 billion KWh of green power, the USA 520 billion KWh. Canada of similar size and population to that of Australia produced 399 billion KWh. Australia being the greatest producer of Co2 per capita is so far down the list of green energy producing countries it is embarrassing that 70% of our energy still derives from coal.

                                              The UK is building a $20 billion green power station: 3260MW capable of supplying power to 5 million homes. In addition to Whitelee Windfarm of 215 turbines of 539MW of electricity, enough power for almost 300,000 homes. And Greater Gabbard with 140 turbines which will double in size when its extension is completed in 2017 with the potential to provide enough clean power for 11 million homes.

                                              Is Randall that stupid to think these countries won't complain about Australia foray into coal expansion, and spending nothing on climate change.

                                              Other governments “have emission reductions, enshrined in law, to decarbonise, to switch away from fossil fuels, for the sake of the future climate, these include South Africa, China, India, Japan, South Korea, Tiawan, New Zealand, Denmark, Finland, France, Ireland, Netherlands, Sweden, UK, Norway, Switzerland, and Costa Rica. States and Provinces include Quebec, British Columbia, Alberta, Maryland, Colorado, and California.

                                              Do you really expect the international community will allow Australia to produce billions of tonnes of atmospheric C02 from coal while it spends billions reducing atmospheric C02? We are set to become the pariah of the international community.

                                              Commenter
                                              Pen of hrba
                                              Date and time
                                              November 19, 2013, 12:46PM
                                              • Pen - simple economics. If you make your product more expensive vs your trading partners, you become less competitive and sell less.

                                                Not only that, you reduce your standard of living. Most would call that self harm. And all for what?

                                                Read some Lomborg - he believes in CC well as a measured and rational response. And it seems, some direct action to move to renewables over a 50 year time frame. Seems quite sensible really.

                                                Commenter
                                                Hacka
                                                Location
                                                Canberra
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 12:59PM
                                              • Pen - simple economics. If you make your product more expensive vs your trading partners, you become less competitive and sell less.

                                                Not only that, you reduce your standard of living. Most would call that self harm. And all for what?

                                                Read some Lomborg - he believes in CC well as a measured and rational response. And it seems, some direct action to move to renewables over a 50 year time frame. Seems quite sensible really.

                                                Commenter
                                                Hacka
                                                Location
                                                Canberra
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 12:59PM
                                              • Australia has very high labour costs. Much higher than China, higher than USA or Canada. Coupled with this, we also have a very small domestic market base. So how do we compete & still maintain our high standadrs of living? With low energy costs of course. Energy derived from coal.

                                                Commenter
                                                Lewis
                                                Location
                                                Sydney
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:25PM
                                              • Hacka - Increasing the price of electicity would through a price on carbon would make us less competitive (although only with those countries who also aren't putting a price on carbon) but how does increasing the tax burden on all taxpayers to pay big polluters make us more competitive?
                                                And what happens at the point in time when we start facing carbon tarrifs to export to countries that have a price on carbon?
                                                The "cheap electricity" argument is sort sighted, we have to adapt and the price of adaptation is always lower the earlier you move.

                                                Commenter
                                                Macca75
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:40PM
                                              • Lewis,
                                                Of all countries in this world we are blessed with hot, dry and massive and level land mass most suitable for solar and wind power generations. These are pollution free and green house free renewable energy sources and we should and must make use of them rather than keep digging up dirty coals. Oil, coal and even gas have reached their use by date. Facts is for how many more years can we keep digging up ? and when the rest of the world moves completely over to renewable who is going to buy our coals worst still who is going to trade with us - we will soon become the unwanted passengers on this planet.

                                                Commenter
                                                Mais51
                                                Location
                                                Sydney
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:53PM
                                              • Macca75 - that's true. But the continual debate that there are only two alternatives here continues to be so narrow minded.

                                                Commenter
                                                Hacka
                                                Location
                                                Canberra
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:56PM
                                              • Maise51. How long? There's an article in the Herald Sun that answers your question. Apparently VIC's 450 billion ton deposit of brown coal is estimated to last 500 years. In the same article the CSIRO is reportedly developing technology called DICE that will reduce emissions by 50% thereby transforming brown coal into the cheapest low CO2 energy source on the planet.

                                                Commenter
                                                Lewis
                                                Location
                                                Sydney
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:09PM
                                              • Hacka and Lewis

                                                Obviously you two are economic illiterates. A ton of coal costs $83 yet to abate the Co2 it produces that is 2.86 tonnes of Co2 it costs $5500.00 per tonne of burnt coal.

                                                Perhaps you can explain the viability of this insanity, however, I doubt it.

                                                Commenter
                                                Pen of hrba
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:21PM
                                              • Hacka - There aren't just 2 alternatives but the fact remains economists and scientists back putting a price on carbon, no one backs direct action. Whatever the alternative a price on carbon has to be a part of it.

                                                Commenter
                                                Macca75
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:32PM
                                              • Pen, you must just be illiterate, period. Read my post again, if you're able to. There is no abatement involved in what I pointed out as having read in an article.

                                                Commenter
                                                Lewis
                                                Location
                                                Sydney
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:46PM
                                              • Macca75 - are you really surprised that if you ask economists whether they think an economic solution for a scientific issue is a good idea, the answer is yes ?

                                                Conversely, the reaction to like DAP is like that for nuclear - both are potentially viable alternatives yet the naysayers reject them outright. Not much logic there.

                                                Tell us Pen - you do understand that if coal from Australia costs more than coal from somewhere else, our mining companies will lose sales - yes ? Economics 101.

                                                Commenter
                                                Hacka
                                                Location
                                                Canberra
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 3:03PM
                                              • Pen of hrba, you seem to be an expert on Climate Change, perhaps you could answer a question.
                                                If Australia reduces it's emissions to zero will that stop the terrible storms in the Philippines ?.

                                                Commenter
                                                Thepres
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 3:06PM
                                              • Hacka - Is this just a scientific problem? Do you think we can address this issue without impacting the economy? If so you are a fool!!

                                                And even if it is just a scientific problem - all the scientists support carbon pricing and oppose direct action as well!!

                                                Commenter
                                                Macc75
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 3:12PM
                                              • Well Macca75 perhaps i am a fool - so could you explain this to we simple folk please ? Part of direct action - say planting a bunch of trees - or sequestration - or abatement - is proven to reduce CO2 levels - correct ?

                                                If so, how can anybody - scientist or other - argue that it doesn't work ?

                                                Whether it's the best bang for your buck is another argument. But surely the fools are the ones that say direct action doesn't work - and there's a few that come to mind ....

                                                Commenter
                                                Hacka
                                                Location
                                                Canberra
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 3:46PM
                                              • Have a look at the CSIRO (you know those world leading scientists) report into just how many trees and how much farm land would be needed to achieve the results Tony says Driect Action will - the very small 5%.

                                                It isn't that sequestration and tree planting doesn't reduce carbon dioxide levels, it is that they can't reduce them by enough - even you should be able to understand that.

                                                Commenter
                                                Macca75
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 4:12PM
                                              • Hacka,

                                                Do you know why Greg "looked it up on Wikipedia" Hunt had to edit the original transcript of Lateline before posting to his website, has gone into hiding to avoid questions about direct action, never even lodged direct action with the PBO for independent costing, is trying to bypass parliament to repeal the carbon tax and implement direct action?

                                                Because it's the biggest piece of scientifically and economically rubbished crap that requires an unrealistic 2/3 of the land mass of Australia for Hunt's hairbrained soil abatement scheme based on the figures Hunt provided.

                                                Hunt was so lazy that in 2013 he used the same projections and figures from 2010 and promised to deliver in 3 years what he previously promised in 9 years and at the same cost.

                                                Hunt refuted Monash Uni and Sinclair Knight Merz's findings of a $4b to $15 billion blackhole in direct action's costings but failed to provide any costings to prove it.

                                                Commenter
                                                Tristan
                                                Location
                                                Melbourne
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 4:12PM
                                            • It's fascinating that the spying on Indonesia alleged to have happened during 2009, during the reign of the ALP government, yet they and their supporters are loudly crying foul. What hypocrites!

                                              This is just a campaign by the leftists to try and undermine the good work being done by the new government, trying to prevent the boats being stopped. Pathetic.

                                              Commenter
                                              Alternate View
                                              Date and time
                                              November 19, 2013, 12:49PM
                                              • good work being done by new Government?
                                                ha ha hah hah hahha

                                                Commenter
                                                whatabout lost jobs under abbott
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:14PM
                                              • You don't have to be on the left of politics to see that this has been badly handled by the Abbott government.

                                                But this is not a time for politicking, particularly of the domestic variety. Regardless of when and who authorised the spying, a diplomatic apology should be prompt and sincere.

                                                Commenter
                                                What's left?
                                                Location
                                                The Centre
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:16PM
                                              • Yesterday TA when asked said this

                                                "All countries gather intelligence but Australia gathers it only to do good, and not just for Australia, but for its friends, of which Indonesia most assuredly, is one" So did he also meant monitoring SBY private phone calls is part of helping Indonesia ?

                                                Commenter
                                                Mais51
                                                Location
                                                Sydney
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:34PM
                                            • They should transfer crew and passengers onto Australian boats before towing. If the boat is deemed unseaworthy then sink it. Transfer passengers and crew into life craft subject to weather conditions inside Indonesian waters and in site of land and send them back to where they came from.

                                              Commenter
                                              Pen of hrba
                                              Date and time
                                              November 19, 2013, 12:51PM
                                              • pretty sure Afghanistan is landlocked Pen ... can't see them getting all that far in a lifeboat on their way back to where they came from ... meanwhile what a great title for a reality TV show designed to show us the way towards a little more compassion ... !

                                                Commenter
                                                juileep
                                                Location
                                                sydney
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:12PM
                                              • juileep

                                                I have stated repeatedly before that the life craft should have small outboard motors. The crew of the fishing boat being Indonesian fishermen should be able to work out how to steer with an outboard.

                                                Commenter
                                                Pen of hrba
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:57PM
                                              • Pen that's very nice of you to wish for an outboard motor on life boats but it doesn't address the actual point does it.... the asylum seekers are from Afghanistan and Pakistan not Indonesia which is merely a transit country. It's a bit like flying to Europe from here with a fueling stop in Dubai ... you might have stopped over in Dubai for a few hours but you are not coming from there ... you are coming from here ... kapeesh?

                                                Commenter
                                                juileep
                                                Location
                                                sydney
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:37PM
                                            • If Scott Ludlam is so unhappy with Australia maybe he should try North Korea. Might be more his speed.

                                              Commenter
                                              Moar Politics
                                              Date and time
                                              November 19, 2013, 1:28PM
                                              • It's a pity for Australia that the former Opposition did not spend time in North Korea, given how much they thought was wrong with the country.

                                                Commenter
                                                Whyalla Wipeout
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:46PM
                                              • Relax; Scott Ludlam is just ramping up his profile for the upcoming re-run of senate elections in WA. You do know he's a politician right?

                                                Commenter
                                                Lewis
                                                Location
                                                Sydney
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:54PM
                                              • So your argument is so long as we stay ahead of North Korea we are perfect?

                                                Or should we always try to do better than we have managed previously?

                                                Commenter
                                                RichardJ
                                                Location
                                                Canberra
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:18PM
                                              • Tony Abbott is already using North Korea style propaganda in attempting to control the media.

                                                Exhibit 1 - Scott "not in my folder" Morrison's media releases in response to his failure to answer questions on boat arrivals in parliament.

                                                Scott Morrison taking down his website www.scottmorrison.com.au, refusing all media interviews except Andrew Bolt and his weekly spot on Liberal hack Ray Hadley's 2GB program.

                                                Commenter
                                                Tristan
                                                Location
                                                Melbourne
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:18PM
                                            • Why do I get the feeling that this newspaper and the ABC are attempting to blame everything but the bubonic plague on the new government? The issue at hand was information released that Indonesia was "spied" upon in 2009 by Australian agencies. Yet the Greens and Labor feign indignation over Tony Abbott's reaction to the media report that the Indonesian government was spied upon. So what did Labor do in 2009 to deal with the knowledge that Australian spy agencies were monitoring the Indonesian government? Or are they now saying that they were unaware what their own agencies were doing. Considering the floundering that was occurring with the abysmal Rudd, Gillard, Rudd government they would not have known if they were Arthur or Martha let alone Kevin or Julia.

                                              Commenter
                                              The Firefighter of Bondi
                                              Date and time
                                              November 19, 2013, 1:30PM
                                              • "Why do I get the feeling that this newspaper and the ABC are attempting to blame everything but the bubonic plague on the new government?"

                                                Almost certainly because you are too one-eyed to consider that your beloved Phoney can do do no wrong. I bet you were one of Phoney's boys who thought (and still thinks) that the Labor Government is/was responsible for everything, including the bubonic plague.

                                                Commenter
                                                Whyalla Wipeout
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:45PM
                                              • The Firefighter of Bondi,

                                                Abbott confessed on 7.30 that all governments gather information.

                                                I'd also point out that his core boats policy includes paying Indonesians to SPY.

                                                His Foreign Minister Julie Bishop refused to guarantee Indonesia that the Abbott government did not spy, and had stopped spying.

                                                The Indonesian government are demanding Julie Bishop make a public statement within the next 2 days, and the Indonesian President has directly attacked Abbott on Twitter for Abbott's laidback, lackadaisical attitude to spying.

                                                Commenter
                                                Tristan
                                                Location
                                                Melbourne
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:12PM
                                              • Probably because they deserve to be blamed, have you thought of that? How about spending $3.2 billion on Direct Action that cannot work. Do you care to defend that little piece of insanity, hmmm?

                                                Commenter
                                                Pen of hrba
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:28PM
                                            • " the Indonesian President isn't mucking about."

                                              Yawn. Context? All politics is local and the Indonesian President has a challenging election coming up. Oh to be in a parallel universe to the see how The Age would be protecting a Labor government. "Independent. Always." must mean you want to secede from Australia.

                                              Commenter
                                              Moar Politics
                                              Date and time
                                              November 19, 2013, 1:31PM
                                              • Yeap. He's just showboating. Who cares if he is upset about it. Get over it. Yawn. Abbott was right to dismiss it.

                                                Commenter
                                                Sarah of Carnegie
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:37PM
                                              • You can't deny that by saying "all govt's gather information" Abbott made a bad situation worse - all at a time he is wanting the Indonesians to help him out.

                                                Commenter
                                                Macca75
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:46PM
                                              • @Macca75 - Why was the Rudd Government allegedly doing this in the first place? How do you know Abbott's comments aren't perfectly appropriate. Oh, you don't.

                                                Why don't you go ask Rudd, Gillard and their Defence Ministers why they were spying?

                                                Commenter
                                                Moar Politics
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:03PM
                                              • Moar Politics,

                                                And you would have to be naive in the extreme if you think Abbott's rubbish boats policies will suddenly be accepted based on next year's Indonesian result.

                                                Tony "gunboat diplomacy" Abbott wont be getting an easy ride just because SBY might not be president next year.

                                                Abbott has poor negotiating skills. Tantrum Tony only gets his way when he has a senate majority and he can ram through legislation by guillotining debate.

                                                Commenter
                                                Tristan
                                                Location
                                                Melbourne
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:08PM
                                              • Moar Politics - How do I know Abbott's comments weren't appropriate - How about SBY's reaction via twitter or the calling back of the ambassador?

                                                And how do you know that this sort of thing started under the ALP and not Howard? oh that's right you don't!

                                                I never condoned the actions in fact I said it was a bad situation, but by not following the US's example of an apology and promise to never do it again Abbott made things worse, maybe if you weren't so blinkered you could see that.

                                                Commenter
                                                Macca75
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:30PM
                                              • Sarah of Carnegie,

                                                With your level of tact and diplomacy, you should nominate yourself as Abbott's next Foreign Minister.

                                                Your get stuffed attitude fits perfectly with the ethos of the Abbott government.

                                                Commenter
                                                Tristan
                                                Location
                                                Melbourne
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 2:48PM
                                            • Were they listening in on phone conversations or tracking who called who and for how long?

                                              Commenter
                                              Jill
                                              Date and time
                                              November 19, 2013, 1:40PM
                                              • Great photo of Reuben the dog on the beach at Adelaide. Hope that Julia, Tim and Reuben are all very happy in their new Adelaide home. Best wishes Julia!

                                                Commenter
                                                Margaret
                                                Location
                                                New Zealand
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:48PM
                                                • Great dog, great beach, greater house, and a greater pension of $200,000 a year. Taxpayers ripped off again.

                                                  Commenter
                                                  Pen of hrba
                                                  Date and time
                                                  November 19, 2013, 2:34PM
                                              • On a per capita basis SBY and Abbott have a fairly similar Twitter following.

                                                Commenter
                                                Hacka
                                                Location
                                                Canberra
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:50PM
                                                • It's amazing that today's social media platforms have replaced diplomatic representations and the whatever coloured phones that directly link Tony Abbott to SBY.

                                                  Commenter
                                                  enough is enough
                                                  Date and time
                                                  November 19, 2013, 2:11PM
                                                • So, a similar proportion of terminally bored people in both countries, then?

                                                  Commenter
                                                  Lewis Winders
                                                  Location
                                                  Tasania
                                                  Date and time
                                                  November 19, 2013, 2:13PM
                                                • Seeing as SBY tweeted in english, the audience he was trying to reach may indeed be smaller than TA's following.

                                                  Commenter
                                                  Lewis
                                                  Location
                                                  Sydney
                                                  Date and time
                                                  November 19, 2013, 2:20PM
                                              • Grant of Mitcham, you have misunderstood the issue. It's not about the spying, it's about the response, for which the government is responsible. I don't expect Hacka to get this as (s)he is too far gone down Tea Party lane. It's unlikely you can get out of maze by only turning Right...

                                                On balance, I thought then and I think now, that Murphy was right to raid ASIO. Certainly it was within his power to do it.

                                                I don't know much about the communist influence you mention but, really, so what? Menzies tried to ban membership of the CP and failed in the High Court. It wasn't illegal (though subsequent history shows it wasn't the best idea).

                                                Labor could indeed apologise to Indonesia; might be a bit of a coup for them.

                                                And 'Me, Myself, I' was a really rather good Joan Armatrading song, don't know why you mentioned it.

                                                Commenter
                                                RichardJ
                                                Location
                                                Canberra
                                                Date and time
                                                November 19, 2013, 1:57PM
                                                  • Would you like us to roll over and raise the white flag Richard ?

                                                    As for Labor - perhaps they should apologise to Australians before anyone else.

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Hacka
                                                    Location
                                                    Canberra
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 3:06PM
                                                • So we now know:

                                                  The phone tapping scandal took place on the ALP’s watch.
                                                  The lease for the Canberra residence was signed before the election, on the ALP’s watch.
                                                  The ALP gov’t was advised that the NBN would blow out by at least $30B but didn’t disclose it.
                                                  The ALP had put in place processes to reduce the public service by 14,500 but didn’t disclose it and did not adequately provide for redundancy payments.
                                                  The ALP locked in a long and expensive lease on a half empty building for the Climate Change dept.
                                                  Gillard was plotting to knife Rudd well in advance of the actual coup.
                                                  40,000 boat arrivals 1000 dead and billions wasted.
                                                  The new democratic ALP processes rejected the member vote and installed the factions’ candidate.
                                                  We await the outcome of the enquiry into Home Insulation.

                                                  .. so naturally the media continues to demand answers from Tony Abbott.

                                                  Commenter
                                                  Puzzled
                                                  Date and time
                                                  November 19, 2013, 2:11PM
                                                  • "The lease for the Canberra residence was signed before the election, on the ALP’s watch."

                                                    Puzzled,

                                                    Was it one of the many Commonwealth buildings sold and leased back at inflated prices by Costello during Howard's term in government?

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Tristan
                                                    Location
                                                    Melbourne
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:21PM
                                                  • Typical LNP rant, mostly unwarranted drivel.

                                                    The Liberal Party's Robert Menzies created ASIS in 1952 to spy on our neighbours. SO the question is, do we need spying or don't we? If not, then blame the Liberals.

                                                    If spying is a necessary evil, then no particular party is to blame and you have to look at how a government deals with an issue if it becomes public.

                                                    In this case, Abbott showed just how incompetent he is when it comes to diplomacy.

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Tone
                                                    Location
                                                    Melbourne
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:21PM
                                                  • Puzzled, read this the original story on the mansion where it states Abbott was asked to view the residence but was too busy. Probably chanting slogans!
                                                    http://www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/political-news/pms-unused-mansion-costs-taxpayers-3000-a-week-20131118-2xqtv.html

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Pieron
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:29PM
                                                  • Tristan

                                                    A privately held residence I believe.

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Puzzled
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:32PM
                                                  • Pieron

                                                    As was Rudd. Most of us would assume you do an inspection BEFORE signing up. What was the rush?

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Puzzled
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:40PM
                                                  • Yes Puzzled... move along, nothing to see here!

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Alternate View
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 3:44PM
                                                  • Yes puzzled I would do an inspection, i would also have the sense to tell them to hold of. Also use some common sense and follow up before making grandiose statements as well.

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Pieron
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 5:24PM
                                                • I suppose SBY thinks that if he makes enough noise it will attract attention towards the act of surveillance while detracting from the product of the surveillance.

                                                  It is curious indeed that a leader takes to the airwaves to stamp and scream about an issue that is standard practice throughout the world and accepted as such. There must be an ulterior motive.

                                                  Commenter
                                                  Pen of hrba
                                                  Date and time
                                                  November 19, 2013, 2:12PM
                                                  • Far and away the most important issue here is that Reuben is doing okay; the rest is just politicians doing what they do. But what a gift to SBY just before an election -- one could almost suspect that it was scripted.

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Lewis Winders
                                                    Location
                                                    Tasania
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:12PM
                                                    • I'd like to know who signed off on this telephone thing, sure as heck wasn't the dog

                                                      Commenter
                                                      SteveH.
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:19PM
                                                    • Perhaps a very careful check needs to be made of Reuben's collar. Perhaps it has been bugged and if so by whom.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      mitch of ACT
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:20PM
                                                  • Is there no limit to the outrageous hypocrisy of this Liberal Government.

                                                    The Minister for hiding the truth just got up in Parliament to quote Angus Huston in support of his campaign of secrecy. This is the same Angus Huston, whose expert panel recommendations were sneered at and abused by the same Minister just two years ago. Apparently, Angus Huston is only good for beating up the Labor side of Government. His intelligent, considered advice is to be discarded like an untasty course on the lazy susan.

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Whyalla Wipeout
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:23PM
                                                    • Apparently it is not hypocritical once you are in government.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Pieron
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:45PM
                                                    • They certainly have the hides as thick as a hippopotamus's. Missed QT today, oh well I guess it will just get more appalling in the thick hide/hypocrisy stakes with this mob.
                                                      They must be held to account for all their lies and blatant hypocrisy.
                                                      "Born to rule" hath no shame.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      A country gal
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 4:24PM
                                                  • '"The government will not be supporting the opposition’s campaign for the people smugglers' right to know," comes the Morrison reply.'

                                                    That's it in a nutshell really.

                                                    Still waiting for the ABC page to track NBN blowouts by the way.

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Moar Politics
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:25PM
                                                    • Wasn't it the LNP opposition who kept a scoreboard and stood by it for photo opps.Is this not hypocrisy of the first order do as I say not as I do?

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Pieron
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:41PM
                                                    • The ABC would track NBN blowouts but their dial-up connection takes its time.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      mitch of ACT
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:41PM
                                                    • Well, what a change an election makes!

                                                      If commenting on the detail of boat arrivals is supporting the people smugglers' right to know, then the number one newscaster for the people smuggling industry was one Scott Morrison. So, given that Mr Morrison now believes that the arrival of asylum seekers without visas is a national military emergency, does this make Scott Morrison a traitor or a quisling. Or was he someone who put his party's political interests ahead of the national interest?

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Whyalla Wipeout
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:44PM
                                                    • So is it your contention that somehow people smugglers currently wouldn't know if this boat had t's bow ripped off?

                                                      And how does this new found zest to deny the people smugglers information gel with their pre election media blitz everytime a boat was sighted?

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Macca75
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:44PM
                                                    • "The government will not be supporting the opposition’s campaign for the people smugglers' right to know," comes the Morrison reply.'

                                                      But surely if the message is "send a boat and we'll rip its bow off' is one Morrison would wnat to send to the people smugglers and their potential clients?

                                                      I just don't get this line of argument at all- if the "new" boat policy is actually working (and we only have Morrison's word for that) then wouldn't it be a good idea to tell people HOW it's working?

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Gigondas
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:49PM
                                                    • What about my right to know? You are anti-democratic.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      RichardJ
                                                      Location
                                                      Canberra
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:54PM
                                                    • The news about the RAN pulling the bow off a refugee boat leading it to sink during an attempted tow seems to have leaked out. The question is have any other boats sunk during such an attempt and how many people died. The current attitude by the gov't and Morrison is tailor-made for covering up deaths on the high seas. They had better hope that sailors don't leak their experiences to the press on their return to port.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      mitch of ACT
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 3:20PM
                                                  • Dolores is so out of her depth......

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Whyalla Wipeout
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:38PM
                                                    • Actually quiet the opposite. I finding that Ms Bishop is doing a good job amongst some rowdy and rude members from both sides.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Sarah of Carnegie
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:59PM
                                                    • I agree, WW. I would have thought she would have managed to kick Tanya Plibersek out by now.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Lewis
                                                      Location
                                                      Sydney
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 3:33PM
                                                    • Of course you do Sarah, of course you do.

                                                      You probably also believe Direct Action will actually work.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Macca75
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 3:41PM
                                                    • Sarah, you think she is doing a good job? Gee Sarah, you wouldn't happen to be a one-eyed member of the Liberal Party would you?

                                                      Just look at the circus over a question based on an unsourced vague news article that breached standing orders. Dolores did not even have any idea what the Opposition was talking about until she was briefed by the Clerk.

                                                      Hopeless.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Whyalla Wipeout
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 3:51PM
                                                  • I smell a second (of many) Abbott sorry tours of Indonesia coming up.

                                                    Commenter
                                                    Tristan
                                                    Location
                                                    Melbourne
                                                    Date and time
                                                    November 19, 2013, 2:43PM
                                                    • Oh look, apparently the Liberals are using a newspaper report to renege on its policies. It appears Pyne has made up more excuses of why his side will be incompetent at public management.

                                                      It is important that the journalists of Australia don't let the Liberals get away with creating lies about the previous Government.

                                                      Commenter
                                                      Whyalla Wipeout
                                                      Date and time
                                                      November 19, 2013, 2:49PM
                                                      • For all of those upset about Australia spying on Indonesia please cast your minds back to historical events. There was the confrontation with Indonesia in the 60's that got down to the shooting at each other stage, the replacement of Soekarno by Suhartpo in 1965 that resulted in widespread violence in Indonesia against the communist PKR and the slaughter of tens of thousands of Chinese Then there was the violent invasion of East Timor in 1975 followed in 1999 by the need for Australian troops to be sent in to restore peace and see off the Indonesian militia after the self-determination vote. The there were the Bali bombings and now asylum seekers. The relations between the 2 countries have occasionally been far from peaceful and any prudent nation would be wise to engage in some intelligence gathering. Spying on the President's wife tho, is a step too far unless Julia and/or Julie didn't wan to turn up at event wearing the same color.
                                                        Apologies to the history buffs if I got some of the years wrong.

                                                        Commenter
                                                        mitch of ACT
                                                        Date and time
                                                        November 19, 2013, 2:53PM
                                                        • I don't like the woman but the Question Time photo is nice, Bishop looks like she is having some fun as Speaker

                                                          Considering we have heard no other transgressions since the 'Electricity Bill' incident I assume that she is doing a half decent job of being impartial

                                                          Commenter
                                                          havasay
                                                          Date and time
                                                          November 19, 2013, 2:54PM
                                                          • Perhaps you should have been listening to today's Question Time where, unclear about why an irrelevant answer by the Minister for Immigration was actually relevant, felt it necessary to explain in detail the political point that the Minister was making.

                                                            It is reminiscent of nothing so much as Alan Jones helping out Phoney Tony with the right political blurb for his listeners.

                                                            Commenter
                                                            Whyalla Wipeout
                                                            Date and time
                                                            November 19, 2013, 3:01PM
                                                          • Whyalla Wipeout
                                                            I thought her defence of Morrison on a point of order was hilarious when she tried to say the question was about numbers when it wasn't. Or having to pull out the book of standing orders because she did not know what she was ruling on.

                                                            Commenter
                                                            Al Simers
                                                            Date and time
                                                            November 19, 2013, 3:14PM
                                                        • SBY doesn't need to send tweets to tell Abbott what he is thinking..... he could save the .22c . If he thought about the Theme of his complaint he might realise the redundancy in its publication.

                                                          Commenter
                                                          Cwitty
                                                          Location
                                                          Sydney
                                                          Date and time
                                                          November 19, 2013, 2:58PM
                                                          • Who was the P.M. when this occurred? Labor needs to back down quickly. Tony Abbott has shown great restraint and loyalty to Australia NOT to expose Rudd and Labor as being those in charge when the allegations are levelled

                                                            Commenter
                                                            B.W. from the Shire
                                                            Location
                                                            The Shire
                                                            Date and time
                                                            November 19, 2013, 3:11PM
                                                            • Pen, according to Lomborg the more CO2 that we release into the atmosphere at the moment, the greater the level of biodiversive productivity.

                                                              Or put another way - more plants grow, more animals can be sustained.

                                                              No doubt there's a tipping point - he reckons in about 50 years.

                                                              Care to comment ? (without the standard insults)

                                                              Commenter
                                                              Hacka
                                                              Location
                                                              Canberra
                                                              Date and time
                                                              November 19, 2013, 3:19PM
                                                              • Hacka that is why you deny global warming is by increasing levels of C02 in the atmosphere albeit one of the most certain concepts in natural science. No serious academic body, significant institution, or national government doubts the basic science. Despite a total lack of evidence to the contrary, a portion of the public, journalists, and politicians and other fantasist's are increasingly sceptical – even as the level of scientific certainty has increased.

                                                                So it is that psychologists claim people like you suffer interpreting evidence in ways not related to its quality? Reading or listening to opinions from climate change sceptics for 50% of the time, can lead to an unfounded bias that climate science is only 50% certain. Clearly you fit the mould Hacka.

                                                                And clearly you miss the point that plants can only increase their foliage providing there is sufficient water to sustain the growth. Further in rain forest areas plants are already at full growth capacity.

                                                                Commenter
                                                                Pen of hrba
                                                                Date and time
                                                                November 19, 2013, 4:06PM
                                                              • Pen - i quite happily accept the science of climate change.

                                                                Interesting you couldn't or wouldn't answer the question.

                                                                Commenter
                                                                Hacka
                                                                Location
                                                                Canberra
                                                                Date and time
                                                                November 19, 2013, 4:19PM
                                                            • Perhaps its just me but seeing Abbott on that side of the house just looks wrong

                                                              Commenter
                                                              tlc1962
                                                              Location
                                                              Melbourne
                                                              Date and time
                                                              November 19, 2013, 3:30PM
                                                              • You are a 'Government change' denier.
                                                                You need to accept the science of democracy.

                                                                Commenter
                                                                Cwitty
                                                                Location
                                                                Sydney
                                                                Date and time
                                                                November 19, 2013, 3:46PM
                                                              • hot day in Melbourne, global warming ?? or climate change?? after the coldest October in 30 years in Melbourne, climate change or global warming.
                                                                We have had loads of rain again this year, climate scientist said it would never rain again. Who is right ?? Hahahaha

                                                                Commenter
                                                                William Shortone
                                                                Location
                                                                Brunswick
                                                                Date and time
                                                                November 19, 2013, 3:56PM
                                                              • William - at least try to be truthful. BoM says that October in Melbourne was relatively average - including 'above average night time temperatures' and 'average to below average day time temperatures' http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/month/vic/melbourne.shtml

                                                                And secondly, exactly which climate scientist said it would never rain again?

                                                                Commenter
                                                                pseudomys
                                                                Location
                                                                Melbourne
                                                                Date and time
                                                                November 19, 2013, 4:29PM
                                                              • Our relationship with Indonesia is a slow moving train wreck at the moment, thankfully we have a skilled statesman and diplomat as Prime Minist ...OH WAIT!!!!

                                                                Commenter
                                                                Marktlog
                                                                Location
                                                                Highgate Hill
                                                                Date and time
                                                                November 19, 2013, 4:42PM
                                                            • My butcher is a wise man and he tells me "If you don't want people to look at your meat, don't hang it in the window"
                                                              Obama’s phone is secure, SBY's phone is not. Even Tony’s phone is secure. If they hang their meat in their window they can't really complain when people look at it. . We all saw the ‘news of the world’ episode you don’t need to be a high tech spy to hack people’s phones. What were they thinking?
                                                              If SBY should be angry with anyone it should be his internal security that thought it was OK if the president just bought any phone at the local Digi Cell, then use that phone to discuss state secrets. Seriously Maxwell Smart could have got the information given its lack of protection.

                                                              Commenter
                                                              Cwitty
                                                              Location
                                                              Sydney
                                                              Date and time
                                                              November 19, 2013, 3:33PM
                                                              • The Government's stance on giving out information about boat arrivals is confusing at best, trending towards the bizarre. They tell us that they are busily getting on with their 'Stop the Boats' / 'Buy the Boats' policy, and it's working a treat. They're so busy the don't have time to tell us (us, of course, being the people who elected them, and in whose name they act) what's actually happening. Then they say information will help people smugglers sell their services.

                                                                But surely it would only help them sell their services if the boats were actually getting through. If, as we're vaguely told, the boats have slowed to a trickle, then surely that's a message we should be trumpeting,. and backing up with as many facts as we can?

                                                                Maybe the facts are not quite as rosy as Admiral Morrison is letting on? Surely not...

                                                                Commenter
                                                                Gigondas
                                                                Date and time
                                                                November 19, 2013, 3:34PM
                                                                • On the NBN croc - Albo deserves a special mention too. Remember the Monday Lateline episode before the election where Albo debated Turnbull.

                                                                  The latter asked repeatedly for Albo to release the updated NBN business plan with all those revised numbers in it. Albo refused.

                                                                  Coupled with the Lazard report, this could be one for Senate Estimates.

                                                                  Commenter
                                                                  Hacka
                                                                  Location
                                                                  Canberra
                                                                  Date and time
                                                                  November 19, 2013, 3:37PM
                                                                  • So what Hacka,

                                                                    Your mob has TWO HUNDRED policy costings that they failed to release before and after the election plus 3 core policies on boats, alternative broadband and direct action that were never even lodged with the PBO for independent costing - these all should be before Senate estimates.

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Tristan
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Melbourne
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 3:45PM
                                                                  • Tristan - they were released on or before 5 September, sounds like your favourite media sources didn't let you know.

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Hacka
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Canberra
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 3:52PM
                                                                  • Trissy.. "Your Mob"
                                                                    I think you will find my enlightened friend that you are referring to the Government of Australia.. Your Government. Our PM.
                                                                    Unless you are one of those “Government change Deniers” that cannot accept the science of elections? The science is settled the election is over; the ‘consensus view’ of more than 95% of recognised political scientists is that the LNP should run the country and make decisions in your name. So not ‘Your mob’ it is now ‘Our Mob’
                                                                    Your welcome!

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Cwitty
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Sydney
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:11PM
                                                                  • Albo smashed that unbearably vain Turnbull
                                                                    on the lateline episode

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Marktlog
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Highgate Hill
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:32PM
                                                                  • Cwitty - well done on the 'Government change' denier comment.

                                                                    You've got my vote for Coalition parrot of the day.

                                                                    Any original thoughts in that head of yours?

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Think for yourself
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Please
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:37PM
                                                                  • "Tristan - they were released on or before 5 September, sounds like your favourite media sources didn't let you know."

                                                                    No you're confused Hacka, very confused.

                                                                    What the Liberals released on Thu afternoon 5 Sep 2013 after the media blackout on political advertising was not "in good time" and was not the detailed Parliamentary Budget Office costings including assumptions.

                                                                    It also included a previously unannounced opt out adult content internet filter that Abbott failed to previously mention.

                                                                    “Key Coalition policies not submitted for independent costings”
                                                                    (The Age 5 Sep 2013)

                                                                    "The Coalition has not submitted its climate change, broadband and asylum seeker policies for independent costing ahead of Thursday's final release of figures before the election."

                                                                    www.theage.com.au/federal-politics/federal-election-2013/key-coalition-policies-not-submitted-for-independent-costings-20130905-2t6dm.html

                                                                    “Abbott says voters have plenty of info despite absence of full policy costings” (ABC radio PM transcript 4 Sep 2013)

                                                                    "MARK COLVIN: The Federal Opposition leader Tony Abbott says the Coalition has now released all its major policies, but he's still yet to produce a final list of savings and policy costings."

                                                                    www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2013/s3841182.htm

                                                                    That flimsy 8 page document released on the afternoon of Thu 5 Sep 2013, 1.5 days out from the election, was not the 200 detailed PBO costings but merely a statement signed off by Abbott's "3 eminent Australians".

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Tristan
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Melbourne
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 5:11PM
                                                                • How many times has that two faced liar Scott Morrison now lectured the media about getting facts wrong, that have later been proven right.

                                                                  Now it's Morrison's tow back boats policy which Morrison denied existed.

                                                                  We read today that an Australian customs boat ripped off the bow of an asylum seeker boat while attempting to tow it.

                                                                  Here's Morrison denying the Liberals have a tow back policy.

                                                                  "Coalition has reservations about refugee convention"
                                                                  (ABC radio AM transcript 18 Jul 2013)
                                                                  "SAMANTHA HAWLEY: You'll send everyone back and that involves the tow back obviously. Have you spoken …

                                                                  SCOTT MORRISON: Turn back is our policy, not tow back. That's how the media describe it and the ABC in particularly. I don't know why they do that.

                                                                  SAMANTHA HAWLEY: Okay.

                                                                  SCOTT MORRISON: I don't know why they do that.

                                                                  SAMANTHA HAWLEY: It's not tow back so does that mean that any policy that you bring in will never involve a boat being towed back away from Australia?

                                                                  SCOTT MORRISON: Well turn backs involve a whole range of different operational arrangements and that's why …

                                                                  SAMANTHA HAWLEY: But not towing?

                                                                  SCOTT MORRISON: Well, I didn't say that. What I said turn, the tow back description has always implied that they'll be taken back across the Indonesian border, sea border. And that's never been the Coalition's contention."

                                                                  www.abc.net.au/am/content/2013/s3805470.htm

                                                                  "Coalition ‘never had a policy of towing boats back’, says Scott Morrison"
                                                                  (The Guardian 4 Oct 2013)

                                                                  "Immigration minister accuses media of ‘misrepresentation over a long period of time’."

                                                                  "In an interview in October 2011 with MTR Radio in Melbourne, Abbott said of towing boats back: “it's been done in the past, successfully done in the past and what was done in the past can be done again in the future.”

                                                                  www.theguardian.com/world/2013/oct/04/coalition-never-had-a-policy-of-towing-boats-back-says-scott-morrison

                                                                  Commenter
                                                                  Tristan
                                                                  Location
                                                                  Melbourne
                                                                  Date and time
                                                                  November 19, 2013, 3:56PM
                                                                  • Looks like you read a bit more broadly than Hacka Tristan.

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Al Simers
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:08PM
                                                                  • It's a bit hard to "read" a radio interview.

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Hacka
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Canberra
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:12PM
                                                                  • Links to the ABC and the Guardian.. Seriosly you are funny. May aswell give us a link to the Labor party website.. for a different prospective tell us what GetUp think. C'mon Trissy, get out of the echo chambers, and start listening to the majority.

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Cwitty
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Sydney
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:18PM
                                                                  • "It's a bit hard to "read" a radio interview."

                                                                    Hacka,

                                                                    Did you notice that I mentioned it was a "transcript" of an ABC radio interview, and provided you with the link.

                                                                    They also have podcasts.

                                                                    Cwitty, go back to reading your Liberal press releases,"Our Plan: Real Solutions", 2GB, ACA, Today Tonight and The Daily Telegraph.

                                                                    Don't shoot the messenger.

                                                                    It's not my fault the lying rodent Scott Morrison denied but was caught out lying about boats not being towed back, the mid-ocean standoff, Mater Hospital doctors denying the mother access to her child when it was actually Morrison's instructions, the existence of unaccompanied minors and pregnant women in Liberal donor Toll Holding tents, testy relations between Indonesia and Australia.

                                                                    That coward Scott Morrison will only be interviewed by lightweight time wasters like Andrew Bolt and Ray Hadley who never ask hard questions and who don't provide transcripts of their interviews.

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Tristan
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Melbourne
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:38PM
                                                                  • Cwitty, your preferred sources are much further to the right of centre; correct?

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    jofek
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:53PM
                                                                • I was just thinking about the news item "Indonesia recalls ambassador to Australia"...

                                                                  I imagine the scene, Jakarta's senior diplomats sitting around with quizzical expressions on their faces "what was his name?", and then one of them remembers...to a chorus of "yes, of course!"...

                                                                  Commenter
                                                                  Hans von Schlappenplanker
                                                                  Date and time
                                                                  November 19, 2013, 3:58PM
                                                                  • Photo 3:03pm - Tanya Plibersek once again provides her welcoming snarl.

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Smokin Mo
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Ryde
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:22PM
                                                                    • What is it you guys don't like about a woman prepared to give as good as she gets? Not ladylike; is that your issue?

                                                                      Commenter
                                                                      jofek
                                                                      Date and time
                                                                      November 19, 2013, 4:51PM
                                                                    • She's our Snarlin' Darlin' !

                                                                      Commenter
                                                                      We Luv Tanya
                                                                      Date and time
                                                                      November 19, 2013, 5:18PM
                                                                    • Yes I believe that Tanya has that same sort of personality as Julia.

                                                                      Commenter
                                                                      J.G.
                                                                      Date and time
                                                                      November 19, 2013, 5:20PM
                                                                  • “"Australia is not a good neighbour," was the headline in Kompas.
                                                                    Islamic-based newspaper Republica's headline reads: "Wire tapping damages diplomacy".
                                                                    Its editorial reminisced about how “sweet” the relationship had been under the leadership of Kevin Rudd, and how things had since gone sour.”
                                                                    ….and yet still we will have this endless barrage of LNP barrackers who are incapable of seeing objectively that this government is making a hash of foreign affairs and diplomacy.

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    Rich
                                                                    Location
                                                                    Melbourne
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:31PM
                                                                    • You would seem to be the one lacking in objectivity Rich.
                                                                      This intelligence gathering by Australia related to activities during the Rudd Government. This information was provided to some media organisations in June - a thoroughly inconvenient time for release for the then Labor Government.
                                                                      Both Abbott and Shorten appear to be very measured, cautious and conciliatory in their language; both appear to genuinely have the national interest at heart.
                                                                      That’s all we can ask.

                                                                      Commenter
                                                                      Jim from Brisbane
                                                                      Location
                                                                      Brisbane
                                                                      Date and time
                                                                      November 19, 2013, 5:19PM
                                                                  • I'm getting tired of the lines that Lt Gen Angus Campbell is spinning, he repeats the Morrison mantras and then says "I am not involved in the political process"

                                                                    It may be an inconvenient fact for Defence but he is neck deep in it

                                                                    Commenter
                                                                    havasay
                                                                    Date and time
                                                                    November 19, 2013, 4:49PM
                                                                    • Clearly the titles "Honourable" and "Senator" should be withdrawn from Hanson-Young's parliamentary title.

                                                                      Commenter
                                                                      Hacka
                                                                      Location
                                                                      Canberra
                                                                      Date and time
                                                                      November 19, 2013, 4:54PM
                                                                      • Maybe Hanson Young could try holding her breath and stamping her feet until she gets what she wants. No less dignified than her usual behaviour.

                                                                        Commenter
                                                                        Puzzled
                                                                        Date and time
                                                                        November 19, 2013, 4:57PM
                                                                        • OSB managed by the General is a failed mission! 700 people have arrived since Abbott began this silly little project. This clearly points out Tony Abbott's incompetency as a manager of anything.

                                                                          Commenter
                                                                          Sharron
                                                                          Location
                                                                          Canberra
                                                                          Date and time
                                                                          November 19, 2013, 5:05PM
                                                                          • gosh that picture of Senator Cash with the PM is quite disturbing!

                                                                            Commenter
                                                                            juileep
                                                                            Location
                                                                            sydney
                                                                            Date and time
                                                                            November 19, 2013, 5:14PM
                                                                            • I thought that the adults would now be in charge. "Tony apologise, No Won't so there" . All we are missing is him sticking out his tongue.
                                                                              All he has top do is follow Pres Obama example. Is that really so hard?

                                                                              Commenter
                                                                              Chas
                                                                              Location
                                                                              mackay
                                                                              Date and time
                                                                              November 19, 2013, 5:27PM
                                                                              Comments are now closed